Debate Battle! GRAPHIC VIOLENCE: Gratuitous or necessary evil?
May 5th 2008 03:50
Graphic body split from Videodrome
Harpoon through Kevin Bacon's throat in Friday the 13th
Watching well-executed simulated graphic violence within a horror movie is about the purging of a deep-rooted fear we all possess, and the inherent safety we can claim from the comfort of our living room or auditorium. There is exhilaration - albeit perverted in the minds of those without a horror movie sensibility – one gets from witnessing violence in the extreme.
Boogeyman Michael Myers in the relatively bloodless Halloween
Heather Donahue petrified in the dark of The Blair Witch Project
Day of the Dead (1985) is a superb example of a horror movie that uses graphic violence to punctuate its continuing tale of a plague of flesh-eating zombies overwhelming the world. Curiously Halloween is one of the only movies of its genre to not play the blood and gore game. And if Blair Witch had been more graphically violent it would’ve been a completely different movie, and arguably not nearly as effective.
A blinder behind the eyes in Day of the Dead
But there are those who are adament that gratuitous violence on screen perpetuates violence in real life. So are the effects of graphic violence important within the context of a horror movie? Have contemporary horror movies taken graphic violence too far with the whole “torture porn” aesthetic? Is modern horror’s lean toward graphic violence simply gratuitous and, ultimately, reprehensible?
Do you prefer your horror movie to be “chaste” or “corrupt”?
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Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
But I have no problem with other people enjoying the guts and gore, i just don't find gory movies all that horrifying.
Is that first pic from Day Of The Dead also? Never seen it. Looks pleasant enough.
Comment by Ahmed
Video Gamer Kids
Little Green Foosballs
PolyKicks
Cinema Three
I think th egore detracts, I just look at it and think 'gee, look how fake that is'.
Comment by JohnDoe
Film & TV on DVD
Let's go with "Corrupt" today because without it there would never be Peter Jackson's Braindead, Sam Raimi's Evil Dead or Neil Marshal's Dog Soldiers.
Comment by Wayne F
Bucket Movies
Bucket Snipets
Some movies sometimes overdo the amount of blood and guts and it ruins the affect. If a movie aimlessly overuses blood in a scene it probably won't as much of a "shock" effect depending on the content its used in. A good example would be Kill Bill. I liked the movie but the amount of blood in the movie didn't shock me, it just made me think "Wow... that's a lot of red."
I prefer a good balance of both non-violence horror and bloody horror. I do enjoy the bloody side a bit more though only if done right. Nothing like a good bloodbath to get the heart pumping
Comment by Cibbuano
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Comment by Bryn
Horrorphile
Comment by D. Armenta
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What constitutes bad manners?
The male mystique
Debate Fan
L.A.M.P.
My biggest thrills came from comic books like "Vault of Horror" and "Tales from the Crypt"--which were extremely, over-the-top graphic--way more graphic than movies until later on. While my parents didn't expressly forbid them, I knew instinctively to be discreet about owning/reading them.
Every kid I knew loved gore, not only the gross aspect of watching it in a movie, but the extra fun of trying to re-create it when playing. That's why I share Bryn's love of old-school effects..they took imagination.
I'm a big Tom Savini fan because of that...
Comment by Lilla
From The Home Front
Enviro Warrior
Dream Herald
Esoteric Bookshop
I was almost not going to comment, becuase I thought my comment would be so predictable ... but hell, just had to say that those scenes in your psot are more violent than everything I have watched since 1999 - and that was accident.
In a non-horrific world there would be no violence I guess in any genre of film?
But ultimately, I guess my experiences would say that for me, the story has to cover the need for gratuitus violence ... let me see, an example of this comes in dystopic warning films like the Matrix.
Lilla ...
Comment by Bryn
Horrorphile
Lilla, I agree, if the plot or narrative calls for the gore, then go, gore, go.
Comment by Damo
For the Sake of Argument
My Apologetics
Tricky.
Usually after a few years when I see the gory scene again it looks so fake.
The 'Thumbs in the Eyes' scene in Blade Runner looked pretty real the first time around. Lost impact after a while then I could study it closer I realized that it was indeed just clever editing.
Autopsy scenes look just goofy in some movies. Is every monster filled with organs that are detached from blood vessels? They look like shopping bags to me. I mean have you seen that supposed real 'Alien Autopsy'? What a laugh?
I am not fan of the splatter but I am of the creepiness.
Comment by Brad Gaylard
Mens Zen
Take something like Final Destination 2 - which has some of the best gore in a modern horror (IMHO) - it's there to be fun. That film is all about setting up the kills in an elaborate and creatively gory way.
Then you've got the stuff that shocks - usually brief and harrowing - like the Irreversible scene you mentioned, or the bottle to the face in Pan's Labyrinth, or the punctuated violence in Cronenberg's "A History of Violence."
There are definitely gorehounds out there who just want to see a bit of creativity in their grue... I don't mind that, but I reckon it's more effective when it has an element of realism and is backed up by a solid script.
Romero is on a whole other level... take Dawn of the Dead... I can handle the exploding head, but it's the pie fight that makes me cringe every time.
Comment by Bryn
Horrorphile
Brad, nice comments, yeah the creative deaths in Final Destination 2 were impressive, especially the fencing wire whipped through the guy (or was that in the first one?)
I actually prefer Zack Snyder's version of Dawn of the Dead than Romero's ... As much as I admire Tom Savini, I don't think his best work is evident in that movie. His Sistine Chapel is Day of the Dead.
Comment by Damo
For the Sake of Argument
My Apologetics
Comment by Bryn
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Comment by Cheryl J
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The deaths in Final Destination 2 were great, I loved the pane of glass - splat.
Horror comedies need graphic violence or they don't work. Have you seen the very quirky low budget Dead & Breakfast? I laughed my arse off with the drum cymbal scene. Never has a musical instrument been used with such bloody finesse. Plus there are line-dancing zombies, a couple of Carradines and Jeremy Sisto. What more does one need?
So I will go with graphic violence in the horror genre being a necessary (and fun) evil.
Comment by Bethany
It really depends on the application, violent gore can really drive a point home as well as the creepy suspense part.
But, for the most part, gore isn't very well done. It has to be carefully done or else it's just nasty, or funny. Suspense doesn't have to be handled quite so carefully, so it's more likely to be effective if not perfect than imperfectly done gore.
Comment by Damo
For the Sake of Argument
My Apologetics
Have you seen Akira, Ghost in a Shell or the Evangelion movie?
Comment by Bryn
Horrorphile
Bethany, I agree, if you're gonna do special effects make sure they look convincing, unless you are purposefully going for the Z-grade look ... Rob Bottin's work on The Thing and The Howling, Tom Savini's work on Day of the Dead, Rick Baker's work on An American Werewolf in London, these are benchmark movies in terms of special effects make-up. Even the low-budget work on The Evil Dead was ingeniously executed. So, it's not just the technicians, it's the director and the way they are edited.
Comment by Cibbuano
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Comment by Mark Isaacson
FIBA Live
If I had a choice, I'd say violence works only within the right context and not just thrown in to cause a few gasps between the boredom. It needs to be creative, and perhaps a little unlikely in the real world, to make the audience sit up and enjoy it, let alone jump out of their seats.
Comment by Bryn
Horrorphile
Comment by Bryn
Horrorphile
Mark, I agree, in the non-horror genre I've always admired Scorsese's use of violence as punctuation ...
Comment by Damo
For the Sake of Argument
My Apologetics
Space Adventure Cobra? Or Golgo 13: The Professional? Or Legend of the Overfiend.
I have been chasing the Overfiend for a while but alas it has not come to my video library.
The other I have not seen yet,
However there are a few that do come to mind that I want to see again. Vampire Hunter D.
Damn now I am dragging the post in a Manga direction.
Just a foot note. I am not really a gore hound by nature. I do also put limits on what my kids can see.
Comment by Bryn
Horrorphile
Apparently there's a live action version of Wicked City, I'd like to see that!
Comment by cinemabanana
Sometimes the scariest things are unseen.
Comment by Bryn
Horrorphile
Comment by XlupoldX
I would watch all manner of horror films in the company of my parents and then have great hours long conversations about the plot and what we used to call "the juicy parts". I would literally cheer when I could find copies of Fangoria and spend hours staring at the blood soaked images trying to figure out exactly how these horrendous things were so convincingly created. I went through a huge phase in my preteens to early twenties where I was an unashamed gorehound, the more visceral, tortuous and just out and out nasty a film was, the more I would love it. My first viewings of the Herschell Gordon Lewis classics Blood Feast, The Wizard of Gore and 2000 Maniacs was like discovering my very own blood drenched holy trinity.
But something very odd has begun to happen to me . . .as an adult (apparently when you are in your thirties you are technically a grown up. . .) I have found my stomach for graphic violence and its partner in crime, gore, is really stating to shrink. The word "squeamish" didn’t appear in my vocabulary to describe my reactions until the past couple of years.
I have actively avoided films because they know they contain explicit scenes that would just leave me feeling queasy and thus not entertained. . .and I'm sure doing that has meant I have lost out on some damned good movies. My most recent film that I'm swinging back and forward on is the French Frontier(s) and yet I am actively seeking out Inside which I know will have me writhing in my seat.
The crux of it all (after a rather long winded babble) is graphic violence and gore will always have a very valid part in cinema, it evokes a plethora of emotions and thoughts from the human animal that we can "enjoy" in the relative safety of knowing the atrocities we are viewing are all pretend. I fully believe that with the world we live in where there are very real instances of this kind of violence towards human beings we need to be able to feel that fear and revulsion in a "safe" environment, be able to watch something truly horrendous and then come out into the daylight with a big , daft grin on our face because we "survived" it.
The only real problem I have with violence and gore is if it has no relevance to plot, this is why rather than shock and offend me, Hostel just made me roll my eyes and ask "Why did I bother?" and on the flipside, why Severance had me both cringing and cheering. If its done with an ounce of intelligence and isn't PURELY there to shock (Because, if I really wanted to be shocked by violence I can just switch on my telly and watch the evening news) or grossout tactics aren’t there to make up for a shoddy plot (Again, I want to be grossed out I’ll watch me some real live surgery footage) . . .but lets be honest just HOW awesome was that scene in the very poor Silent Hill movie when Pyramidhead did the old flesh wrench?
Okay. . I'll be quiet now.
Comment by Bryn
Horrorphile
I have yet to see Frontier(s) or Inside. I ordered Inside on DVD from Amazon, and it hasn't turned up yet for some annoying reason. I haven't heard of Severance.
I've been a fan of special effects make-up ever since seeing Alien on VHS (I wasn't old enough to see it when it first came out) when I was about 12 or so. But it was The Thing that rocked my world. I have every Fangoria up to the late 80s (the Scarlet Years of Modern Horror).
I totally agree about context. I actually quite enjoyed Hostel: Part 2, which surprised me, because Hostel really annoyed the hell out of me. There was a Euro flavour to the sequel that I liked the taste of.
Have you seen Irreversible?
Comment by XlupoldX
So I guess I shall swither on with Irreversible and maybe one day when I feel like I have a big old set of balls and am ready to sit through something that will evoke REAL negative emotions, I'll watch it.
Comment by Bryn
Horrorphile
Irreversible is so much more intelligently made. It is a study of violence, make no mistake, but it is brilliantly constructed. The rape scene, although harrowing, is shot in such a way that is so not the subjective view you normally see in movies that feature a rape, it is more objective, and in that way it is ultimately more disturbing, but, more to the point, it is more affecting in the "right" way. The context of the scene in the whole movie is important. It is the crux of the movie ie the destruction of beauty, and it needs to be horrific. But it is not a film I recommend to just anyone. There is a very graphic murder near the beginning of the movie in a darkened nightclub which I found to be one of the most appalling sequences of violence I'd ever seen, It was harder to watch than the rape.
Comment by Bryn
Horrorphile
Irreversible is so much more intelligently made. It is a study of violence, make no mistake, but it is brilliantly constructed. The rape scene, although harrowing, is shot in such a way that is so not the subjective view you normally see in movies that feature a rape, it is more objective, and in that way it is ultimately more disturbing, but, more to the point, it is more affecting in the "right" way. The context of the scene in the whole movie is important. It is the crux of the movie ie the destruction of beauty, and it needs to be horrific. But it is not a film I recommend to just anyone. There is a very graphic murder near the beginning of the movie in a darkened nightclub which I found to be one of the most appalling sequences of violence I'd ever seen, It was harder to watch than the rape.
Comment by Jake
Comment by Bryn
Horrorphile